Hello Walter,

Good luck with the new alto guitar which you have begun to build!

With Google I found recordings on Myspace of the group that you mentioned, Bubble Fauna. Their music is very original and modern, and I suppose that it takes time to get used to it. But it is fascinating.

You mentioned that on the recordings of alto guitar which you have heard, the treble is not good? This interested me, so I did a systematic comparison of my two 6 string guitars and two alto guitars. The guitars involved in the test were the following:
- 6 string Ramirez 1A from 1984 with spruce top, de cámara
model, 664 mm string length
- 6 string Bolin from 1978
- 11 string Bolin alto guitar from 1974
- 11 string Hedman alto guitar from 1992 (Bolin model)
The strings of all the instruments were fairly new. The alto guitars had Savarez Corum Alliance high tension strings and Hannabach special bass strings for strings 7-11. The 6 string guitars had Savarez Corum Alliance medium tension strings.

I put these four instruments on a cloth on a table. I played on one string at a time, with index finger apoyando (rest stroke) at the soundhole. I did not damp any other strings. I compared the sounds according to my own subjective opinion.

First I compared the two alto guitars with open strings. I found no significant difference. Both were very good. Before I had the opinion that the tone of the Bolin was clearer and that of the Hedman was warmer, but when I played them side by side like this, then I thought that they were quite equal.

Then I compared my two 6 string guitars, and my previous opinion was confirmed. The Ramirez has a little warmer tone, and the Bolin is slightly clearer. Both are very good.

Then I compared each alto guitar with both 6 string guitars, one at a time. I stopped the alto guitars on the first fret, and the 6 string guitars on the appropriate fret to attain the same tone. (At first I played the alto guitars with open strings, but then the comparison was unfair, because open strings give a much better sound than stopped strings.) I found no significant difference in tone quality between the alto guitars and the 6 string guitars. This surprised me, because previously I thought that the treble of alto guitars was thinner and sharper than the treble of 6 string guitars, but this proved not to be true with my instruments when they produced the same tone.

The only real quality difference that I found during these tests was that string #3 of the 6 string guitars was not as good as string #3 of the alto guitars. This is certainly due to the quality difference between high tension strings and medium tension strings. So now I am thinking about perhaps switching to high tension also with my 6 string guitars. I used to have high tension strings on them before, but medium tension is more comfortable to play, especially with 664 mm string length. But string #3 is so much better with high tension.

Best regards,
Sten

Ciao Sten,
ho aspettato un attimo a risponderti per poter indagare meglio sulla ultima domanda che avevo posto a riguardo soprattutto delle corde acute delle altoguitars...
sono riuscito a trovare in effetti registrazioni migliori su youtube e myspace di diversi musicisti rispetto ad alcune poche e rare che all'inizio riuscivo a trovare.
Non riesco ancora bene a focalizzare, ma ancora percepisco delle differenze, forse date dal fatto che le corde a bordone oltre la sesta, suonando spesso libere hanno maggiore durata di suono e mi fanno percepire delle risonanze che mi ingannano...forse un'idea di decadimento degli acuti tale da ingannare il mio udito poco avvezzo all'ascolto di questi strumenti.
nfatti ho trovato questa sensazione spesso nell'ascolto di brani classici e non taento in musicisti che eseguono musica originale...

Non posseggo chitarre di liuteria come Ramirez o kohono, se non quelle realizzate come paragone dal mio maestro compaesano...
Devo dire che spesso ultimamente mi viene richiesto da utenti di altri forum di liutai, di eseguire dei test comparativi con microfoni (ma non ne possiedo di qualità al momento), per vedere i db di uscita dello strumento ed il decadimento di corde per corda, ed ascoltare il timbro stesso dello strumento
Quello che posso dire rispetto il mio prototipo e gli strumenti che posseggo o posso paragonare è, che esso ha maggiore sostegno in durata delle note ( non contando ovviamente i bordoni) pure essendo di volume e misure di cassa ridotte.
Ora solo l'orecchio e la mano di un musicista capace potrebbe darmi maggiori informazioni ed aiutarmi a capire dettagli importanti penso.
ho provato anch'io ad eseguire il procedimento di paragone che mi hai descritto nel tuo post, ed appunto emerge tutto questo!

Spero di riuscire ad avere del denaro per fine estate che pensavo di investire nell'acquisto di una altoguitar usata, anche da sistemare e riparare un poco, ma capace di darmi un buon paragone ed una buona base di confronto diretto con i miei prototipi.
per la sensazione che continuo ad avere devo dire che resto confuso, certo che percepisco diversità!

se riesco a fare una registrazione buona come desidererei la posterò certamente.
Allo stesso modo se riesco a recuperare un buon microfono ( nel mio caso ne serviranno due) proverò a vedere non solo db di uscita ch personalmente mi interessano meno del timbro dello strumento, ma sostegno delle note e armoniche dello strumento.
Un saluto e come sempre grazie del confronto,
Walter.

Hello Sten,
I waited a moment to respond better to investigate the last question I asked about the strings especially acute altoguitars ...
I could actually find better recordings on youtube and myspace musicians than some few and rare that the top could find.
I still do not focus well, but still perceive the differences, perhaps given the fact that the strings to drone over the sixth, they're free to have longer life and make me feel the sound echoes that deceive me an idea ... maybe decay of acute as to deceive my ears unaccustomed to listening to these instruments.
n fact I found this feeling often listen to classical music and musicians in taento performing original music ...

Do not own guitars or stringed instruments as Ramirez kohono except those made by my teacher as compared with compatriot ...
I must say that lately I is often requested by users in other forums violin, perform comparative tests with microphones (but do not have any quality at the time) to see the db output of the instrument and the decay of ropes for rope, and listen to the timbre of the instrument itself
What can I say than my prototype instruments that possess or can I compare it, it has increased support in duration of notes (not counting of course the drones) as well as volume measures and reduced cash.
Now only the ear and hand of a capable musician might give me more information and help to understand important details I think.
I tried to execute the procedure of comparison that you described in your post, and just show it all!

I hope to have the money for the end of summer I was thinking of investing in a used altoguitar also be accommodated and a little repair, but capable of giving me a good comparison and a good basis for direct comparison with my prototypes.
to feel that I must say that I continue to have confused the rest, I perceive some diversity!

if I can make a record as good as I would like to post them for sure.
Similarly if I can retrieve a proper microphone (in my case they will both) try to see not only db output ch personally interest me less than the stamp tool, but support the notes and harmonics of the tool.
A greeting and thanks as always the comparison,
Walter.

Hello Walter,

I think that I understand your feelings about the sound of the treble strings. This could be due to resonances in the bass strings. It is well known that damping the bass strings is part of playing the alto guitar. Per-Olof Johnson mentions different damping techniques in his book "Altgitarren". Many players (for instance me) do not know these damping techniques very well, and then the sound of the treble strings gets somewhat blurred by unwanted resonances. Some players like Göran Söllscher master the alto guitar better, and then the trebles produce a clearer sound.

I think that it is a good idea to let a professional musician try your alto guitar. But this person, being new to the alto guitar, will probably not know how to damp the bass strings, so he/she can probably not be expected to play very well, which should be taken into account.

I am a little surprised that you want to buy a used alto guitar, and I do not quite see the use that you would have for it. There are three things with other alto guitars that I would expect you to be interested in: the sound, the measures, and the bracing (the pattern of the strips of wood on the back side of the guitar top):
- The sound of alto guitars you can hear on Internet (Youtube, Myspace etc), and perhaps from other alto guitars in your neighbourhood. By the way, Andreas Hess has recently made a fine recording of Silvius Leopold Weiss' ciacona in sol minor here on altoguitar.com: http://altoguitar.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=31&func=view&catid=2&id=1525#1525
- The measures of alto guitars you can get from me and hopefully also from other members of altoguitar.com.
- The bracing is made differently by different makers. Some vary the bracing, for instance Bolin who used many types of bracing, and Roger Strömberg who among other types also has a "Fleta" type of bracing.
If you buy a used alto guitar, then you would get only one example of the various sounds, measures, and bracings which exist.

Now it is time to make coffee for my wife.

Kind regards,

Sten

Ciao Sten,
concordo a pieno con quanto mi suggerisci, ho notato in alcune fotografie non solo di chitarristi altoguitar ma di chitarre multicorde che spesso si cercano dei sistemi per stoppare o attutire le corde, sia con tecniche meccaniche che di esecuzione. ho visto usare anche con delle fettucce di stoffa o mettendo del materiale tipo lana sotto il ponticello a sfiorare le corde..

Per il fatto di possedere una altoguitar usata, non è solo per copiare misure o guardarla dentro.
spesso mi trovo a voler sentire per le mani uno strumenti di qualità e non solo osservarlo, ma vederne finiture, picchiettarlo e sentire come risponde acusticamente, per poi non parlare del fatto di avere uno strumento di valore comunque come riferimento!

Personalmente non ho potuto studiare chitarra ne violoncello come avrei desiderato per motivi familiari, ma grazie a tabulati e suonando lo strumento si cresce dentro come consapevolezza liutistica!
sono un autodidatta anche in questo forse per tale motivo potrai percepire le mi incertezze e leggerezze.
in pratica sono uno di quelli che vuole toccare e percepire sia dalla materia che usa grezze e prima, sia da oggetti finiti sensazioni e caratteristiche.
Non credo poi vi sia limite di tempo per mettersi a studiare musica ben sapendo i propri limiti e scopi...
I miei riferimenti di gusto spaziano molto nella musica sia contemporanea che classica, ma, sento la rinascita interiore della musica Barocca, grazie forse alla fortuna di avere una compagna musicologa.
Non so se condividi i miei punti di vista Sten, ma per me realizzare, ascoltare, percepire dal poter toccare strumenti di varia natura, usare materia da modellare è cercare il
senso della meraviglia è la possibilità di stupirmi ancora!
Al momento come liutaio non vendo sono ancore nella fase della ricerca.
Le misure che mi hai dato mi serviranno molto infatti.
Registrazioni ora riesco a trovarne maggiori anche grazie al forum...
Ho iniziato a provare a mettere mano su alcune tabulature dal link che mi hai indicato, anche se i miei limiti sono molti!!!
Per l'incatenatura, interessante il fatto di usare un modello Fleta.

Per il musicista professionista... a settembre provo con il conservatorio, spero lì di trovare una apertura ed un interesse.
Come sempre grazie di tutto Walter

Hello Sten,
I agree fully with what I suggest, I noticed in some pictures not only guitarists but altoguitar guitar multicorde often look for ways to stop or mitigate the ropes, both mechanical and technical execution. I have seen used with the straps of cloth or putting material such as wool jumper to touch the strings ..

For the fact of possessing a altoguitar used, not just to copy measures or look inside.
I often find myself wanting a feel for the hands as tools and not just observe, but see finishes tapping sound and feel like responding, and then not to mention the fact of having a valuable tool as a reference anyway!

Personally I could not study guitar cello as I wanted it for family reasons, but because of printouts and playing the instrument as one grows in awareness lute!
are self-taught in this perhaps for that reason I can perceive the uncertainties and lightness.
in practice, one that wants to touch and feel on both the source and uses that first, both finished objects feelings and characteristics.
Then I do not think there is time limit to start studying music knowing their limitations and purposes ...
My references ranging taste in music is very contemporary and classical, but I feel the inner rebirth of baroque music, perhaps due to the fortune of having a fellow musicologist.
I do not know if you share my views Sten, but for me to realize, hear, feel to touch the instruments, different types of material used to mold is to seek the
sense of wonder is the ability to amaze me again!
At the time as a luthier do not sell are still in the research phase.
The measures that have given me I will very fact.
Registrations now able to find even more thanks to the forum ...
I started trying to put its hands on some of tablature from the link I've shown above, although my limitations are many!
For bracing, interestingly, using a model Fleta.

For the professional musician ... I try to September with the conservatory, I hope here to find an opening and an interest.
As always thanks for everything Walter