Hi Toffe,

Your description of the Hannabach basses has aroused my curiosity. I'd like to try them out.

Could you please tell me the specification of these strings (string type, ...).

PS: What's the scale of your alto?

Dear Ivan,

My experience so far has been that using a 6th string for the basses from 7 - 11 is OK but:

1. I find you do need to ensure that the string height at both the nut and saddle is reasonable otherwise some buzzing can occur and the feel is a little "soft"

2. using the smaller diam strings results in a somewhat subdued bass sound. This may be desirable if your trebles are more mellow or you dont want too much Campanella or resonance effect.

3. for a full sound I use the following on the Milagro / Bartolex 11 string Alto's I sell. It gives a full sonourous bass with strong resonance and Campanella effect. (of course this may not suit your playing or desires but thats up to you)
Strings 7 - 10 are nominal 1.27mm diam - Hannabach Silver Special C-8 (8158_MT) or Savarez D-7 (5207R) or La Bella C ( NYL028W 0.052) or Aranjuez C-7 (concert silver 7-C)
11 is nominal diam 1.44mm and use B-9 (8159_MT) or Savarez C-8 (5208R) or La Bella A (NYL030W .056)

4. my personal preference which suits how I play or want to sound is:
String 7 - Aranjuez C-7 (concert silver 7-C) - the gold colour is useful as a visual ref marker at 7. PS I am also working on a possible technique to slightly colour normal silver strings - I will let the forum know if I am successful.
Strings 8 - 10 - Hannabach Silver Special C-8 (8158_MT) or Savarez D-7 (5207R)
String 11 - Hannabach Silver Special B-9 (8159_MT) or Savarez C-8

Most bass strings are pretty much similar in sound quality between makes but of course definately not so on the top 3 treble strings. So really any of the above well known brands will be good. The Aranjuez seems to get duller quicker so its life is not as long I find. (also possible that the 7th string tends to be used slightly more than the other basses and occasionally fretted as well - so maybe this affects its life ??) The bass strings 7 - 11 last a long time compared to the 1st 6. Usually the 4th needs replacing long before any of the others then 5 and then the trebles 1, 2, 3 in my experience.

I suppose the only other suggestion is to make sure that the 1st 5 strings intonation is checked right up the fingerboard to Fret 10 at least and proper set-up adjustments to string height / nut / saddle or all are done to get it reasonable. (You will never get it perfect but should be able to maintain a +/- 3 - 7 cent variability from fret 0 - fret 14. I say this because with the shorter strings and higher pitch, intonation irregularities occur more easily and tuning is more sensitive than a 6 string.

I hope my ramblings are of some help. String choice often comes down to a personal level and I urge you to experiment as many of us have done using suggestions as a guide. Strings By Mail I can highly recomend and they sell strings individually with great friendly service and good prices. Good luck with your project and playing.

Kind Regards from a very wet Sydney in Australia. Peter Mony www.laudarra.com.au

Hi Peter,

Thank you very much for your detailed description of the alternative stringings for strings
7 to 11 you apply to the altos sold by you. Up to now I have used E6-material for
strings 7 to 13. I am eager to try out such an alternative stringing, to experience the difference.

But I have concerns about the additional tension exerted on the bridge.

In order to get an impression of the effective forces I made some approximative
calculations based on the formula discussed in thread < A lutenist's approach to string
selection >.Hannabach kindly provided me with the tensions for strings 8 to 9 of the 10-
string set in standard scale length for classical guitars, which was part of the input
needed for these calculations.

I compared Bartolex/Milagro Alto 11c

stringing version 1:
.. Strings 1 to 6: e1, b, g, d, A, E, Hannabach medium tension
.. Strings 7 to 11: E6, E6, E6, E6, E6, Hannabach medium tension
to
stringing version 2:
.. Strings 1 to 6: e1, b, g, d, A, E, Hannabach medium tension
.. Strings 7 to 11: C8, C8, C8, C8, B9, Hannabach medium tension

I am aware, that your favourite choice for string 7 is Aranjuez C-7, but, lacking tension
data for this string type, I replaced it in stringing version 2 by one of your other
alternatives, namely Hannabach C8.

I took the scordatura with the highest convenient tuning as a basis, namely the
scordatura for AA-key signature 5#.

Here are the details of the calculations:

Stringing version 1, strings 1 to 6:

Alto: String no.............................................1..........2........3..........4.........5.........6.......1.to.6
Reference tuning: note...............................e1.........b........g.........d.........A........E
F1: Reference tuning: frequency (in Hz)...329.6..246.9..196.0..146.8..110.0...82.4
L1: Reference string length (in cm)............65.......65.......65.......65.......65.......65
T1: Reference tension (in N)......................73.......62........64.......72......70......70
Alto tuning: note..........................................g1.......d1.........a..........f........c........G
F2: Alto tuning: frquency (in Hz)................392....293.7....220....174.6..130.8...98
L2: Alto: string length (in cm).....................55........55.......55.......55.......55.......55
T2: Alto : tension (in N)...............................74........63.......58.......73......71.......71......410

Stringing version 1, strings 7 to 11:

Alto: String no...............................................7........8.......9.......10......11.....7.to.11
Reference tuning: note.................................E.......E.......E.......E........E
F1: Reference tuning: frequency (in Hz)....82.4...82.4...82.4...82.4...82.4
L1: Reference string length (in cm).............65......65......65......65.....65
T1: Reference tension (in N).......................70......70......70.....70......70
Alto tuning: note............................................F#.....E.......D......C#......B1
F2: Alto tuning: frequency (in Hz)...............92.5....82.4...73.4...69.3..61.75
L2: Alto: string length (in cm).......................55.....61.8...65.4...69.3..73.3
T2: Alto : tension (in N).................................63......63......56.....56......50......288

Stringing version 2, strings 1 to 6: see stringing version 1, strings 1 to 6.

Stringing version 2, strings 7 to 11:

Alto: String no...............................................7........8.......9.......10.......11.....7.to.11
Reference tuning: note.................................C.......C.......C.......C.......B1
F1: Reference tuning: frequency (in Hz)....65.4...65.4...65.4...65.4..61.75
L1: Reference string length (in cm).............65......65......65......65......65
T1: Reference tension (in N)........................70......70......70.....70......72
Alto tuning: note............................................F#.......E.......D......C#.....B1
F2: Alto tuning: frequency (in Hz)...............92.5....82.4...73.4...69.3..61.75
L2: Alto: string length (in cm).......................55.....61.8....65.4...69.3..73.3
T2: Alto : tension (in N)...............................100.....100.....89......89......92.....470

The total tension exerted on the bridge is
.. 698 N for stringing version 1
.. 880 N for stringing version 2.

So there is a 26% increase in tension. This increase is effective on the bridge in an
asymmetric way, namely as a 63% increase in the tension of strings 7 to 11.

Obviously the Bartolex/Milagro altos swallow this increase in tension.

I have a 13 string Strömberg alto. I made the same calculation for this instrument
(ignoring the tensions for strings 12 and 13 for reason of comparability). As for the total
tension exerted on the bridge, the results do not differ significantly from the calculation
made for the Bartolex/Milagro altos.

But may I transfer, without thinking twice, the experiences from the Bartolex/Milagro
instruments to mine? I'd like to know the opinion of the luthiers of this forum: is this
increase in tension harmless in any case?

Dear Silvanig,

Great analysis. Well done. Very interesting. It has spurned me into getting down to the calculations which have been on my "one of those things to do one day" list. I have revisited the spreadsheet I set up a few months ago and have today started measuring and calculating the mass per unit length of the various strings to plug into the standard equation for tension. The initial results more or less confirm what you are saying but also give some interesting indication why somehow the thicker strings may sound better to some people. I just want to double check my measurements and calcs before I post them on the forum for discussion. I prefer to derive the tension from my own “mass per length” measurements because I find some anomalies and confusion in what some of the string manufacturers and/or Strings By Mail claim in regards to tension. I will post my results and comments soon. This is all interesting stuff and hopefully our discussions will be of interest and assistance to forum members. Maybe some will awake from 10 years sleeping?

Kind Regards,

Peter Mony

Monypm wrote:

QUOTE:
Maybe some will awake from 10 years sleeping?;)
Kind Regards,
Peter Mony

Hi Peter,
We're not sleeping, but working very hard to buy strings

Friendly yours,
christophe

Bruma, Peter,
I would counsel caution over fitting higher tension strings, particularly in the bass. While a bridge is usually well bonded to a soundboard, adhesives do age, and with the passage of time a failure might occur.
Of more immediate musical importance is that fitting higher tension bass strings will affect the balance of the instrument. The higher tension bass strings have greater density, mass per unit length, and the increase in inertia means that they will not dampen as quickly as smaller gauge strings. 6s guitars are prone to being "bass heavy", 10s guitars continue the same problem. An advantage of the Bolin concept is that it uses the same bass strings for seven onwards, i.e., the strings have the same density, and therefore do not have an increasing tendency to"ring on".
When calculating string tension I prefer to use the classical formula, T = 1/2 x d x (lf)^2, where d is line density, mass per unit length, l is scale length, f, frequency in c/s(herz). One has to use consistent dynamical units. This overestimates the tension due to the neglect of elasticity. Depending on material, the overestimate may be too high by 10% or so.
James.